Canada’s official opposition party takes a stand on FATCA and issues that affect dual nationals

I posted this on another thread, but it’s worth repeating as it is an indication that our concerns are reaching those who are in charge of watching those who are in charge:

NDP Position on the US Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)



68 thoughts on “Canada’s official opposition party takes a stand on FATCA and issues that affect dual nationals

  1. @ bubblebustin

    I would feel better about ‘above’ if Denise Savoie had written somthing about this in 2012. I think the last update was December, 2011. Not much recently.

  2. @bubblebustin

    Who’s watching those in charge of those who are in charge of watching those in charge of…………. 🙂

  3. The Official Oppositons position
    “That negotiations include an exemption for Canadian citizens from filing US tax returns in circumstances where those citizens have no US income or assets, or have no real connection with the United States;” strikes at the very heart of the US citizenship-based tax system which subjects every person with US citizenship to US income tax, irregardless of where they live anywhere in the world. To exclude those living in Canada from this law would reqire Congressional action. Given the current Congressional jijad against US citizens with the audacity to live anywhere outside of the US, any expectation to negotiate an exception is, I fear, dreaming in technicolor.

    The only place where US citizens may live and not be subject to US income tax on their local income is in Puerto Rico. US citizens and green card permanent residents who reside in Puerto Rico are not subject to US income tax on Puerto Rico source income as a result of 1917 legislation exempting the territory of Puerto Rico from Federal taxation. Residents of Puerto Rico, even though they are US citizens, are not permitted to vote for president of the US. No representation; no taxation.

  4. @All
    The only thing the they have to take into account is that one day in the future we will have our turn too! 😈

  5. This is a good article and addresses the facts well. Flaherty has spoken out as well but the question is will Harper when his feet are to the fire and will he cave in the interest something else that the U.S. has to offer. I am a PC myself, but will admit I think that after seeing what has happened in the U.S. – I do not trust any politician of any country to truly do what is in the best interest of the people ( in this case 1 million) versus themselves and the overall government. I am not trying to be a pessimist as I do want to believe (just like the CDN Olympic commercials say) but seeing what has gone on in the world in the last 10 years around the world does not give one a warm and fuzzy of those in charge of government in countries around the world. The interesting part it is the NDP and have seen a couple Liberals that are speaking out on FATCA and this idiocy. It would be hilarious to me who took a few years to understand the political system here where the opposition could call a Premier or Prime Minister on something and call an election. It was so foreign to me in the beginning – but now get how though sometimes not always used correctly – it does keep the person at the top in check. Whether the NDP or Liberals really have this as a platform item….I think that if Harper caves – this will be something they can and probably would use. I may be a PC but have become more left of right living here – it would change my vote and 1M in the U.S. may not be a lot – but in Canada – that is a chunk of the population that seems to be dispersed over the provinces and territories. You add on families and friends of those people who are angered by this – it could change an election and don’t think the opposition parties know this.

    I do believe in Canada and I am proud to be one and live here, but all politicians are people who have agendas and the question is whether another agenda will become more important than protecting us. Over the last weeks, my husband has been pointing me to government sites which show our rights including the one where the government said the only way you can be denied a bank account is if you have committed a crime against a bank and only need a picture ID – which is a driver’s license not a passport with birthplace. The question is will all of this be revised as well or will we be turned away from banks, reported to the U.S., CRA /government decides to comply and collect for U.S. or other constitutional rights ignored or will the constitution need to be revised to say everyone but those born in the U.S. My husband is Canadian by birth and is angrier about this than I am I think and is ready to pull out the information on the government websites out and grab a constitutional lawyer the day that we are denied a bank account …..has turned him into a rebel:-)

    The optimist in me wants to believe that Canada will not cave to the bully and since it is a country truly founded on the freedoms of individuals that it stands up and is recognized as the country that does not roll over for the U.S. Americans in the U.S. believe that Canada is this little bump to the north that has English and French people and they might be able to name 2 cities. I think if Canada sticks to their guns that this will not be the case – it will end up being the place that dissatisfied Americans will want to immigrate – as if you look at Facebook these days – there are a load of them. No longer bragging about the Home of the Free and the Brave – it is more about the injustices taking place and distrust of their politicians. Maybe they will become the new refugees – good thing is they have money to pay taxes:-)

  6. Craig Scott is my MP in Toronto-Danforth and is an international human rights lawyer. I will depend on him to defend our interests.The efforts to influence US lawmakers is worth doing but probably will have no effect, sadly. I am confident that the interests of close to 1,000,000 Canadian citizens will not be allowed to be trampled on by any political party in Canada.

  7. I’m thankful that the NDP have at least taken an official position on this issue. And they are smart for having done so, as 600,000 to one million votes are a very high number to win over. Once FATCA comes into effect and we start seeing the real results of the law, no party will be able to ignore the issue.

  8. @Joe Smith

    I sure am hoping this is true as well and so far I have been impressed by the push back by many of our politicians. I agree with your point that it will have no effect on the U.S. and the lawmakers there – it will be that Canada protects us and supports us on their soil. This all has changed the views of some Canadians as well who sometimes think it would be great to live in the U.S. My husband was one. When we married – he would say how nice it would be to live there and I wouldn’t even entertain it. I think he now isn’t that concerned about shovelling snow once in awhile.

  9. @bubblebustin

    Over the last six or seven weeks the IBS has been essentially my “portal” into a galaxy of information regarding my painful birthmark (US citizenship). Even though I am analytical by nature, I have found it difficult to distill all of the information that I have come across thus far into a set of principles that I need to guide my strategy and my detailed decision making to defend myself. I think the NDP document is an excellent start at helping me refine my position. So thanks to the NDP and thanks to you for posting this.

    I think that it’s critical that we keep the information sharing and dialogue on the IBS flowing. Perhaps selfishly, I’m looking for more. I’m looking for something more concrete, like a “Charter” that would help organize, rally and focus the Canadians like me that find themselves under attack. If that “Charter” is out there somewhere, someone please point me there.

    If not, I wonder if the NDP document could be leveraged as the basis for stating our common purpose and set of principles that would guide us as a group of Canadians.

    I’m currently not an NDP supporter and I am not suggesting that everyone here rally around the NDP. I am saying that while we maintain the online information sharing and debates, we need to start to organize more formally around a common purpose and set of principles. Do you think we need a “Canadian Charter”? Might this NDP document serve as a foundation?

    I would like to know what people think.

  10. Perhaps someone in the UK should contact George Galloway MP, who won last night’s by-election in Bradford, England would probably be no fan of Sen Carl Levin and how Levin treated him during Oil-for-Food Senate hearings in 2005 (maybe this is the real life Rolo advertisement!) see Youtube clip:

  11. A beginning…

    1. That any Canadian (or other, fill in nation) citizen has the right to relinquish their US citizenship without burden or penalty.
    2. That any Canadian citizen residing in Canada is not required to file income taxes to a foreign power for income not earned in that foreign state.
    3. That Canadian privacy laws and human rights codes take precedence over any foreign nation’s attempts to secure personal information from Canadian residents.

  12. @Joe,
    How about one like this: “No foreign nation shall have the right to levy or to collect taxes from residents of this country on income earned in this country, and attempts to do so shall be considered and treated as a violation of National Sovereignty.

  13. @All, there has been discussion on several of the threads to try to find a coherent message, a way to disseminate that message and really, I think, a rallying cry that will get people to sit up and take notice (and take a stand). Perhaps someone who can author can create a new thread specifically for this theme, I think the talk of a charter on this thread fits right in. Coming up with something like that is not one of my strengths, but I absolutely support the idea of it, and would contribute what I can…

  14. @canadianpat
    A charter for a distinct class of citizenry? I like the idea of organizing around “a common purpose and set of principles”, but I don’t know anything about charters and such. Naturally, you will need a consensus on what those principles shall be. Is the NDP’s list of objectives a good start? I think it may be worthy of starting a new post of your own on the subject, don’t you?

  15. The NDP party position has been on Savoie’s website since last Fall at least, when I first came across it. It hasn’t been updated since then, I suspect because there isn’t really much to update until the FATCA regulations are finalized and the government comes out of the closet and says what it is or isn’t going to do about it. At that point, the fun begins …

    As others have pointed out, both the NDP and the Conservatives have strong populist and nationalist streaks in their caucuses and history, the Liberals perhaps less so. I think it would be difficult for the government to throw US-born Canadians under a bus, politically it would be a nightmare for them once other Canadians (including immigrants or descendants of immigrants from other countries) get educated about the implications and precedents that would set. And, in fairness, Flaherty and other Tory MPs have been very clear about not collecting US revenue claims of any sort against Canadian citizens nor FBAR non-filing penalties against anyone living in Canada, citizen or not, thanks to the tax treaty which is very clear on these points.

    What happens with FATCA and the banks remains to be seen. But that’s going to be a hot-button issue, if Canadians of all stripes realize their banks are handing over financial information on individual citizens to any foreign government, never mind the US one, and all account holders are going to get stuck with the significant administrative costs of their Canadian banks’ becoming tax collectors for a foreign government that a lot of us don’t like a whole lot. There are already lots of people upset about the cross-border info sharing for “security” reasons, given the way some of that was abused in some high-profile cases we needn’t get into here.

  16. FYI,

    Hi Craig,

    Re: Your attendance at Ottawa FACTA Meeting

    When you catch your breath I’d like to fill you in on the US expatriate situation. I am one of those who will never cross the border again. I’ve been a Canadian citizen for xx years, landed immigrant xx years prior to that, have no US assets, earnings, or contact with the US and would love to renounce. But apparently, the USA does not subscribe to section 15 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights such that any renunciation could cost me much of the earnings I have made in Canada over the past 37 years!

    There are close to 1,000,000 Canadians in a similar situation. Could be a political winner!

  17. Pingback: The agony of U.S. citizenship for U.S. citizens living outside the U.S. « Renounce U.S. Citizenship – Be Free

  18. @Joe, Go for it! I sure makes sense to me. US Ambassador to the UN Susan Rice recently led the charge that resulted in the Security Council on December 5, 2011 approving Resolution 2023 (2011) condemning Eritrea for violating the human rights of its citizens by subjecting its Diaspora residents abroad to Eritrea income tax plus the means used to collect this tax. There were 13 votes in favor, none in opposition and 2 abstentions (Russia and China.) So it was approved.

    Do you suppose that a similar resolution introduced by Canada with respect to US tax policy and its citizens residing abroad would recerive similar support?

    Nina Olsen, the US Tax Advocate, in her most recent annual Report to Congress stated “It is almost impossible for US citizens living abroad to comply with US tax requirements.” So here is a statement from a high US Government official that might well be quoted in formulaing such a draft resoludion foir the UN Secirity Council’s consideration.

  19. Reply from Craig Scott:

    Dear xxxxxx.

    This is an issue I got to work on my first evening in Ottawa, and will work with our Revenue Canada critic Hoang Mai to try to push back. He and Finance Critic Peter Julian have already met with US Ambassador.
    If you have specific story of being tagged with tax fines for non-filing, can you email as they are keeping a database of examples.
    When I am up and running with staff, I want to be in touch with dual citizens in the riding.

  20. @all
    I am willing to take a shot at getting a “Charter” going. If it turns out to be a bust then I am OK with that – I am just trying to find a way to get more action-oriented. Please stay tuned.

  21. I move that the Isaac Brock Society make all references to extraterritorial taxation as “diaspora tax” because the use of the word diaspora in history-and presently in Eritrea-does much better in implying a struggle, regression or exile. Any seconds on that?

  22. @bubblebustin ; I like that term ‘diaspora tax’!
    @joesmith, thanks for talking with Craig Scott – the danforth was my old riding – and it gives me a good feeling to know that it seems to be in interested and committed hands….

  23. @bubblebustin; checking my Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary, the word Diaspora appears to have its origins in describing the Jews who departed Babylonia after their captivity ended there but instead of returing to their historic home in Palestine they settled in countries outside of Palestine. In modern usage it also refers to the Jewish communities in the vaious countries of the world. An alternate use today is for any religious community living among people of a different predominant religion. Indeed it was used in the UN resolution to describe the Eritreans who have left their homeland to live in other countries.

    My dictionary was printed in 1989 so it may not reflect current usage of this word. Do you have additional information that today its meaning has broadened?
    Many thanks

  24. @Roger
    Funny you would ask me this when I’m writing something about this on the “A Global #FATCA in the future” thread. As I think I first heard the “diaspora tax” reference to our case by Victoria, I’ve asked her to help in the research!

  25. @Roger to answer your question I did a little research and according to Wikipedia:
    “The first mention of a diaspora created as a result of exile is found in the Septuagint in the phrase “esē diaspora en pasais basileias tēs gēs” translated to mean “thou shalt be a dispersion in all kingdoms of the earth”. Its use began to develop from this original sense when the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek; in Ancient Greece the term διασπορά (diaspora) meant “scattering” and was used to refer to citizens of a dominant city-state who emigrated to a conquered land with the purpose of colonization.”
    “After the Bible’s translation into Greek, the word Diaspora then was used to refer to the population of Jews exiled from Israel in 587 BCE by the Babylonians, and from Judea in 70 CE by the Roman Empire. It subsequently came to be used to refer to the historical movements of the dispersed ethnic population of Israel, to the cultural development of that population or to the population itself.”
    “Expanding definition:
    In an article published in 1991, William Safran set out six rules to distinguish diasporas from migrant communities. These included criteria that the group maintains a myth or collective memory of their homeland; they regard their ancestral homeland as their true home, to which they will eventually return; being committed to the restoration or maintenance of that homeland; and they relate “personally or vicariously” to the homeland to a point where it shapes their identity. While Safran’s definitions were influenced by the idea of the Jewish diaspora, he recognised the expanding use of the term.
    Rogers Brubaker (2005) also notes that use of the term diaspora has been widening. He suggests that one element of this expansion in use “involves the application of the term diaspora to an ever-broadening set of cases: essentially to any and every nameable population category that is to some extent dispersed in space.”

    According to William Safran’s six rules defining a diaspora, it could be argued by some whether US citizens living outside the US should refer to themselves as diaspora, but with the ever-expansion of its definition, why not? By virtue of being taxed, we certainly are committed to the maintenance of the homeland. Or, if we aren’t diaspora are we better described as slaves?
    i see elsewhere that there’s been some research on the American diaspora. Here’s something from 2009 from the Harvard Business Review warning of the imminent American brain drain. I have read elsewhere how the current actions of the US are as much to with curbing the loss of intellectual capital as it is to create revenue.

  26. @bbblebustin, Thanks very much for doing this research. It does seem quite fitting and proper, based on current usage, to use this term in describing US citizens who live abroad based on how the use of Diaspora has evolved.

  27. Comment: After reading the Dictionary, Wikipedia, and comments above the word does not resonate with me. I don’t feel dispersed or displaced. I feel I’m at home under attack by a foreign government. Of course many others might feel otherwise.

    Question: If we want to communicate effectively with a large audience, would you want to risk using terminology that might force readers to the Dictionary or Wikipedia to fully understand our message?

  28. Have to agree. Diaspora implies that one still has or wishes to maintain a contact with and/or return to that nation. I do not. Expatriate is not entirely satisfactory as it can imply a temporary living away from one’s true nationality. The best might be “former American” but that excludes people who might like to remain “American” but simply feels that citizen-based taxation is immoral or unfair. I think of myself as a Canadian who was born in the USA but freely and willingly have given up this citizenship and adopted another. What word or phrase expresses that?
    Perhaps the phrase:

    “Unfair taxation on American-born or naturalized Americans who have acquired another citizenship as guaranteed by the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the USA is a signatory,”

  29. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

    “Unfair taxation on American-born or naturalized Americans who have CHANGED THEIR citizenship as guaranteed by the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the USA is a signatory,”

  30. I definitely don’t consider myself to be part of a “dispora”.
    – I don’t watch the news from there or keep up with things happening in America;
    – I don’t observe US customs or holidays;
    – I don’t meet up with other Americans;
    – I DEFINITELY *DO NOT* miss living in the US in any way shape or form.

    The only thing that keeps me from detesting mainland Americans is the fact that almost all of them are oblivious as to what the politicians there are doing. So even though they ELECT their politicians, it’s hard to find them at fault, knowing the kind of wool the politicians pull over their heads.

    The last thing I actually want to be in American, but it’s not quick and easy to get a different nationality.

  31. @Joe Smith
    I agree with you completely. We may share similar circumstances. I was born in the US, came to Canada as an infant. I am a Canadian citizen. I’ve lived and worked in Canada my entire life. I am not a US citizen or US Person abroad. I’m not a US ex-pat in Canada. I am a Canadian at home.

    So some will say under American law I am a “US Person”. I say fine. Under Sharia Law I should beat my daughters if they drift out of line. For me US Law might as well be Sharia Law. I may not respect foreign laws themselves but I do respect sovereign nations to implement laws that work for them.

    In a nutshell I want to work with other Canadians to defend our right to sovereignty and privacy, and influence Canadian laws that work for Canada. I see the US aggression on taxing US Persons in Canada as just one example of foreign aggression that we need to stop. I have the feeling that there will be more examples of foreign aggression to come, especially if many Canadians do the “full ostrich”.

  32. I am waiting for Canadian citizens to be denied entry to the USA or to have threatening letters from the IRS that were not stimulated by disclosing oneself to them. I have decided that I will not be the first one to be so designated by my decision to not enter the US again. I also will not be one who tells the IRS who I am by any disclosure or visit to any consulate.

    Has anyone has these things happen to them yet?

  33. @All

    In the last few weeks after finding this site, I have been talking to family members and friends in the U.S. and they are oblivious that this is going on. We are not talking uneducated people with their head in the sand (well maybe they are these days) One is actually a lawyer who is running for Judge in a southern state. All have said that none of this has been reported in the news in the U.S. (big surprise). They were shocked and thought I was blowing this all out of proportion until I sent them a link to this site – they were totally oblivious. If nothing else – my family members who thought I was nuts and was being ridiculous thinking this had to do with all of us not wanting to be good Americans and pay our taxes – now have an understanding of the facts versus what the U.S. wants them to hear.

    If the land of the free and home of the brave are willing to do this to over 6 million people around the world because they are desperate, what do you think that it will do to the masses if things get worse. No one there who is still drinking the koolaid believes their country would do this and of course there are the ones waving the Flag with their head in the sand that believe that Obama is saving them by doing this without realizing Obama isn’t doing this for them – he is doing it as a last ditch effort to hold on to his Presidency to collect money. I want to know if when checks and balances are all said and done if this ended up costing more than what they actually collected and who will report on that.

    I think it is great that those on here who have MPs that are NDP are using that avenue to help build awareness with the opposition. I am still waiting to see if I get the same Flaherty letter that everyone else did or hear at all. If nothing else, writing it sure made me feel better.

    I think developing a stand that Joe Smith is heading up is amazing. I think though most of us aren’t so proud of our U.S. ties these days, I think the one thing that Americans are (or were) known is that we take a stand and don’t roll over and play dead. Well – that is what people use to think and maybe it is those of us that left that still believe in that which is what will get us all through this standing together for a fight.

    This is just a thought for anyone who is “unmasked”. I wonder if a reporter at one of the National newspapers (Globe or National) would pick up a story hearing from those affected versus reporting on generalizations from the bank/government point of view of how they are affected. I think that if I was a “new Canadian” sitting here – I would want to know what the government plans to do to help us because if they did roll over – they would wonder what will happen if the country they are from tries something like this – would they be protected.

    Has anyone considered the outrage that would happen if this affected the massive Chinese, Indian, or Middle Eastern community – there would chants of racism and profiling and who knows what else. I as well don’t “hang” out with other Americans so even I had NO idea of the vast number of us here. It is actually this happening that has lead me to find out I actually know others in this boat because no one usually advertises they are American if they have become Canadian – me being one of them. My only problem is I have one of those “accents” from below the Mason Dixon line that one cannot lose so stick out like a sore thumb. It is a bit like a scarlet letter as I find other Canadians will ask — how are you affected about all of this – when Americans south of the Canadian border are oblivious.

  34. @Proud Canadian, I am also from the Deep South with just the same “accent” yes we stick out like a sore thumb..Still strong after 35 years in Canada! The banks will not have to ask if we are American, it will be very obvious.

  35. @all

    I agree with the comments above. Diaspora does not work for many of us on this site. I have been a Canadian, who happened to be born in the US, for more than 40 years. Diaspora would seem to indicate that I am still American. I no longer think of myself that way. Like Joe Smith, if that means I will never be able to travel again to the country of my birth, so be it.

  36. @saddened123 and Proud canadian, my family also was from the south, and while I”ve lost my accent, having come here as a small child, my mother still gets asked about hers. I am sticking firmly, and will try to get her also to, that we are Canadian only. This whole media/IRS propaganda, ‘born in the US, have to be a US citizen’ makes me furious. I am not a US person and will be doing everything I can to prove that. Therefore diaspora definitely does not resonate with me.

  37. @All: I agree with comments above. Nothing in the researched meaning of the word diaspora describes me. The fact that the word needed to be researched to determine what it means tells me it would not be understood by most people we want to reach with our message. I personally had never seen or heard the word diaspora until it was used relating to Eritreans.

  38. I remember how in 2004 I was freaked out at Pearson airport the first time that a immigration officer said I needed to travel on a US passport. This was with a four year old (luckily adopted — apparently citizenship can only be passed on through DNA) and Canadian wife in tow on the way to an academic conference in Atlanta. I also recall the Air Canada person telling me to be careful as all communication in the immigration area and beyond were monitored. Since then I have found crossing the border to give talks becoming more and more annoying, sometimes breezing through, other times being chastised for not having a valid US passport. I have not attempted to cross since the time that a Passport was required for all entries.

    As time went by I made inquiries about renouncing, but the turning points were my talking to my Credit Union and finding that “My citizenship was Canadian”, and Donald Cayo reporting that the CRA would not collect any taxes or fines from Canadian citizens.

    The solution was simple and appears to work (at least for me).
    1. Move funds into Credit Union. Do not trust the Chartered Banks.
    2. Resolve to not cross the US border.
    3. Make no effort to renounce or relinguish since that makes you a target!

    I have had almost ten years to work this through and can appreciate how disorienting this can all be. But the bottom line is that they cannot touch you if you are a Canadian (or other) citizen and you stay out of the country. Until I hear otherwise, that is the bottom line for me.

    It has now been 30 years since I have had any official contact with US authorities — i.e. passport renewal and three years since I crossed the border. I do not exist and I will continue not to exist.

    Visit the Grand Canyon? Rather go to Detifoss!

  39. My suggestion – start with a clear statement of the situation and why it’s a crisis:
    The US asserts a taxing jurisdiction on millions of offshore “US persons”, which it defines as anyone born on its soil, the foreign-born children of same, and former green card holders.

    As a result, it is asserting an unusual extra-jurisdictional tax and penalty claim on hundreds of thousands of law abiding Canadian citizens. This is not based upon US-based assets, residence or economic activity, but upon birthplace.

    US-born Canadians affected by this are mostly law-abiding tax-paying Canadians who earn, bank and invest their incomes in their home country of Canada. Many are long-term Canadian citizens with no US economic ties. According to then-existing US law they relinquished their US citizenship by swearing the Canadian citizenship oath, only to be repatriated ex post facto. Many are senior citizens and retirees.

    Some are Canadians who have never worked or lived in the US. They were simply born there while their parents were visiting for travel or education, or due to cross-border hospital arrangements (common in the Eastern Provinces). Also affected are Canadian-born children of US-born Canadians who were now US “tax evaders” simply because of their lineage.

    Especially distressing is application of obscure US money laundering laws to effectively criminalize everyday Canadian banking and investing activities. Local bank accounts and retirement savings are now “undisclosed offshore accounts” subject to outrageous and disproportionate penalties.

  40. @CanadianPat, just re-read your last paragraph, and you express very eloquently how I also feel. Thanks for getting that on here. I do like the way you write!
    @All, One of the things I like best about this site is that it has been clear from the start that there is room for all of us, those that want to or must remain US persons,those that do not, and those that feel that they are NOT US persons. Most of us have a couple of things in common for sure, the complete belief of the idiocy and simple wrongness of citizen-based taxation, and lso that what the US is doing right now is foreign aggression and must be stopped, as it is likely just the tip of a very large iceberg. I don’t think it will weaken our message or effect if we fight on several fronts at once, in fact, I think we have to. Fight to get our governments to protect us as against a foreign aggressor, fight to get the media to stop spouting IRS propaganda and to write the real story, fight to get the world to take off the blinders and see what the US is really doing….

  41. @Everyone

    I have heard a rumor the MP Hoang Mai is going to make a motion to have this issue put on the agenda of the House of Commons Finance Committee when the committee has there next meeting on Tuesday.

    Now if you actually go to the committee website there is section on the planned agenda for Tuesday which DOES indicate Mai is going to make a motion about “something”.

  42. @All

    I agree with outragedcanadian at what Canadianexpat says – it is eloquently put and says what most of us feel.

    I seemed to align with Joe Smith in what I am doing. I had never been questioned crossing the border, in fact if we put my passport on top – it usually assured a lack of questions and going right through. Then in 2008, I went to Connecticut on business with 2 of my employees and thought I was going to get stripped and get a cavity search by a young obnoxious Immigration officer. He made a scene in Immigration telling me I should be ashamed of travelling on a Canadian passport, that I was insulting him and my country. I must at first looked at him like a deer in the head lights as I had NO IDEA what he was talking about. My two employees are behind me wishing they didn’t know me because they knew I was NOT going to take that laying down. I politely but sternly said – I may have been born there but I am NOT American and have NEVER travelled on an American passport and not one person ever said anything before him so wanted to speak to his supervisor as he insulted me and the country I am a citizen and call home. An older guy came over and instead of the cavity search – I think they just wanted me out of there as people were starting to listen and stare, so he stamped my passport and waved me through – but always wondered if I had a wanted poster at Pearson with my name on it:-)

    At the time I just thought – what an Ass and didn’t think more of it until someone else told me they had a similar experience and the only time I crossed the border afterward was by car. I did have another Immigration officer in NY when I was young and just got a Canadian passport basically cuss me out telling me I was not a patriot and lectured me for quite awhile – he was an ex-marine.

    We are still with a charter bank for now and am told I am down as Canadian, but am going to move all accounts with “just” my name to a credit union. My husband has decided to leave the mortgage as he has printed out the charter of rights and consumer advocacy board information saying he wants a Canadian bank to refuse him service as wants to take them to task of violating privacy by asking my birth as it says on the sites he found – anyone can open a bank account in Canada with a photo id and only reason to be turned down is a crime against the bank itself. I keep asking him how happy he is now he married someone born in the U.S. now as he thought he hit the lottery when we married:-). He so wanted to live in the south in warm climate – but not me – he got offered a job there years ago and he had to turn it down as I wouldn’t budge. Told him I would go most anywhere in Canada minus maybe Yellowknife or Whitehorse – but would not return to the U.S. and that was before I had this axe to grind.

    I like outragedcanadian respect the decisions everyone has had to make and are very personal based on circumstances. I believed I relinquished when I became a citizen and don’t consider myself American since that time so I refuse to comply and even if I wanted to in order to travel – I financially will not put my family at risk based on here say of they “may not” impose fines. I understand those that have chosen to renounce and relinquish to just be rid of the burden as well as those that have complied and paid up for their own reasons. It has been a very hard and deeply personal decision that each of us has had to go through lately and not one I ever expected to have to think about. If I still have direct family and emotional ties – it would have be tough and may have made a different decision.

    I have made it clear to family and friends I will never go to the U.S. again and even if this all blew over – just out of principle. The things I miss I have re-created here. I smoke my own pork shoulders, make my own bbq rub and sauce, and even have friends in Canada eating fried green tomatoes, okra, catfish, hush puppies and even the Cincinnati Chili that I love and miss – I have gotten pretty close:-)

    I have a friend – Canadian but born by fluke in the U.S. that has her head in the sand thinking this is all blown out of proportion. She has spent thousands for a trip to the south the end of April and thinks that telling the Immigration officer at Pearson she didn’t know about this and hasn’t lived in the U.S. since she was 8 will save her. I have a sneaking suspicion she will be turned away and will let you know on here if that happens and have the feeling she will start picking the sand flakes out of her hair and get on board the reality train that everyone on here is on.

  43. @Proud Canadian: Please let us know what happens to your friend who will be crossing the border at the end of April. We have a trip planned in August to visit relatives in the US, and I’m becoming terrified. I’ve never been questioned at the border about my Canadian passport which I’ve used many times and I don’t intend to get a US one, but I know I won’t be able to get a CLN in time for our August trip. I’m sure a lot of us would be interested in hearing anyone’s experiences entering the US with a Canadian passport. I wish I could say I will never cross the border again, and maybe I will have to. I really resent that we are treated like criminals for wanting to visit the country of our birth.

  44. @somerfugl –

    You have applied for a CLN and gone through the process so like Joe says – you will probably be fine. My friend just thinks the more she denies her ignorance of this going on – it will save her and we all know that ignorance is not a defence anywhere.

    It would be nice after we all go through this and end up on the other side by either Canada and other countries putting their foot down or the U.S. only focusing on who they said they were (one can hope):-) – it would be nice for us all to come out of hiding and celebrate. The pork shoulder and bbq ribs with meat falling off the bone are on me – someone else has to bring the cold slaw, potato salad and fries. No southern meal is complete without peach cobbler dripping with home-made (not electric) churned ice cream with a quart of cream.

  45. I make a mean peach cobbler, and my beans and cornbread are pretty darn good if I may so so myself 🙂 Thanks for reminding me that it’s not all bad, having roots in another country/culture…

  46. Please don’t forget Collard Greens!! Cornbread is my favorite with Pinto Bean juice.. HA!!

    And MoonPie and Pepsi for afternoon snack!

  47. When I was a teenager, my favourite hangover remedy was left over bean juice, cornbread and velveeta cheese all heated together. Sounds revolting now, but I swore by it…. And, me, I still have trouble eating a sandwich without potato chips. My mom never served a sandwich without chips.. for me they go together like cheese and crackers.

  48. Us’ns has learnt to make collard greens out of kale. Had some a couple of weeks ago. Necessaries still not on the table: baked beans and bourbon.

    PS What does Je me souviens remind you of?

  49. Folks – I have completed some initial work on a 2-page “Charter”. It’s ready for an initial review if you are interested. I followed the instructions to start a new thread however I have not been given permission to do so as yet, so I’ll just post the link here for now (sorry it’s ugly – need to determine how to make it an active link)

    I think a little context is necessary. First, the word “Charter” – I’m not married to that term. I’d be happy to use another term to describe this thing.

    Second, this document is aimed at a group of people who share common values and objectives. That said, I wrote Version One in the first person because at this point, the document is entirely subjective.

    Third – many questions. Can the first-person “I” be changed to “We” given sufficient input and modification? Or is the essence of this document simply not aligned with your values and thinking at all? Or do you think we even need something like a “Charter” to help us move forward? I would appreciate your feedback.

    You’ll have to cut & paste the following link into your Browser. Sorry.

  50. @CanadianPat

    Pretty good so far. One more thing I’ll mention is that all Double Taxation Treaties Canada agrees to should based on the United Nations or OECD models which prohibit taxation based on citizenship.(All of Canada’s 80 or so treaties other than the US one are based on OECD or UN model treaties).

  51. @Tim

    Thanks very much for the input, I will definitely work your point into the document.

    Also need to thank Joe Smith and Roger Conklin for their input (seen early-on in this thread)

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