In early February, Late Loyalist told his 2011 OVDI story, a harrowing tale: his 5% voluntary disclosure fine was $1589.00, with zero taxes owing to the United States, but his lawyer fees exceeded 20k. He now reports that he has renounced his United States citizenship.
Hi All:
Wednesday March 7th at 3:45 pm Calgary time I renounced my US citizenship. What a relief! I can’t tell you how good that first step feels.
I was ushered into the Consulate at 2:45, paid my $450 fee and waited. There was a 76 year older man ahead of me who couldn’t decide what to do. I waited 45 minutes for him to decide. Each time he hesitated the Consul tried even harder to convince him it didn’t ‘cost anything’ to keep his US citizenship. In the end the old guy signed and left relieved. You could see the visible relief on his face.
While I waited I had the chance to review the oath of renunciation and the statement of understanding before going through the process.
I got a similar five minute lecture, same as the old guy. Keeping US citizenship doesn’t cost anything.
I had written my ‘renunciation’ letter in the context that it sounded like I wanted to relinquish if I could. The answer was No. The reason was that when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me. I said, “I’ll renounce, where do I sign”? I wasn’t rude about it but I did push to get through the process. I raised my right hand and the Consul read the ‘oath of renunciation’ to me. I said ‘I do’, signed the two documents and was out in 10 minutes. No second meeting required. I was told that it could be 6 months to a year before I get the CLN. Until then I’m supposed to live like I’m an American.
It was all done in 10 minutes! As I walked back to my work place I felt that all the crap that had been heaped on me since August of 2011 had lifted. As I said to the Consul, “now, I’m just like 35 million other people, and that can’t be bad”.
The staff was polite and efficient and the whole process went real well. I hope that any of you who choose to take the step of renouncing your US citizenship have the same experience I did.
The Isaac Brock Society 
Thanks for sharing your story of renunciation in Calgary — and congratulations, again, from so many here.
I will again take that elevator ride up to the required floor in Rocky Mountain Plaza one day. (I understand about six a week are now doing just that at the Calgary Consulate.) May my trip be sooner rather than later.
As another commenter just said: “We are dealing with an untrustworthy government.”
Do any of us know of one person that has regretted the relinquishment or renunciation? I think not.
Why would a US consul even think the thought “it doesn’t cost you anything to retain your US citizenship”? Who are these people? What kind of training do they have to qualify them for their position?
I can’t wait to feel the same level of relief. Currently waiting on a response from the consulate for an appointment where I am 🙂
Well done and best of luck to you.
@Calgary
Hmm, well I imagine that anyone working at a US consulate is likely to be a patriotic American who also lives in a bit of a consular bubble whilst overseas. I don’t think that they probably understand what the fuss is all about. I imagine though that there is a real mix of people from the extremely well-informed to those new in the job and just learning for the first time how to conduct a renunciation. Don’t really care which I get as long s/he guides me through the oath, shows me where to sign and has a vague idea about when the CLN should arrive!
… they can save their speech. Just tell me where to sign!
Late Loyalist says:
“…when I took the oath and became a Canadian, ‘did I do this with the ‘intent’ to relinquish my US citizenship’? Since I couldn’t show or prove intent the Consul didn’t think this applied to me.”
In my own case, since becoming a Canadian citizen, I have:
– voted in every election for which I was eligible
– lived in Canada
– carried a Canadian passport
– been a member of a Canadian political party
– paid Canadian taxes
– worked in Canada
– owned property in Canada
– had investments and savings in Canada
I have NOT with respect to the US:
– voted in an election
– lived in the US
– carried a US passport
– been a member of a US political party
– filed or paid US taxes
– worked in the US
– owned property in the US
– had savings or investments in the US
Does anyone have an idea whether this aggregation of things would count as “intent” to renounce US citizenship.
@ Northern Shrike: In reasonable times, your case would be open and shut against your intent to keep US citizenship; now if you expressed that this was done with an intent to relinquish. But we are now dealing with a rogue government. In such times, I think we need to become nonchalant regarding the requirements of such an evil government.
I’m not sure where to post this question, so I’ll try here. My apologies if this is the wrong spot.
I’ve sent an email to the Toronto consulate asking about renunciation. They say I need to make an appointment, and they’ll explain it to me. I thought there were some forms I need to fill out, and that it would speed the process if I show up at the appointment with the forms already completed.Is that true? And if so, where can I get the forms? The person I emailed with thought I needed to set up an appointment first to get the information. If there’s anything I should be doing beforehand to speed up the process, please let me know.
What could that possibly mean, “Live like an American”?
Citizenship ceases on the day of renunciation.
But wait, maybe some people will not be allowed to renounce – and then not get their $450 back either?
Insanity.
@usxcanada
I don’t think its that bad…yet. I could see them denying someone who tried to relinquish since it is subject to some bureaucrat’s opinion, but to actually deny somebody a renunciation who “is in sound mind” as they put it? That would be like back in the old USSR when they would deny people the right to emigrate. Maybe Levin’s next law would be an amendment to declare that anyone who wants to renounce citizenship is not “in sound mind”, thus automatically denying each application. Wouldn’t put it past him personally.
@ calgary. You may be right – probably few regret relinquishing or renouncing. But I’m sure there are many whose experience in making this decision is fraught with ambivalence – a tension between the bonds to the country and distrust of the government.
@Northern Shrike: I am in the same position as you and have done the same things you listed when I became a Canadian citizen 10 years ago.
I would like to relinquish and would also like to know what proof I’d need to show them that I had intent to relinquish. Does anyone have any info on this? I’d love to avoid handing over $450.
@TooMuchCoffee – You can make an appointment through this system:
https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/make_default.asp?pc=TRT
My experience in Toronto was that they insisted on the two appointments required by the rules, the first one being a sort of counselling session followed by a waiting period. If you make an appointment for ‘Request notarial and other services not listed above,’ you can book your first session.
I don’t know how they’d react if you wanted to do the whole thing in one session on the grounds that you lived in a part of Ontario where it was a pain to get to Toronto – Thunder Bay or something. The Calgary consulate let Peg, who had to fly in from Winnipeg, do it in one session, fwiw.
renunciationguide.com is helpful reading, as is the State Department’s own instructions to consular officers on how to handle renunciations:
Click to access 115645.pdf
@TooMuchCoffee: I don’tt know what your specific details are, but is it possible you can relinquish, rather than renounce? That can be done in one appointment and without paying the $450 fee.
After you became Canadian, did you do anything to show you still considered yourself a US citizen–i.e., vote in American election, get a US passport or file income tax returns? Or, are you an Accidental American who was born in Canada to a parent born in US?
Also important to all of this may be when you became Canadian citizen–before or after 1986,
All of those points are important to understand your situation.
@TooMuchCoffee, I can’t tell if you’re new to this or not, but just in case you are I urge you to read the posting thoroughly before doing so. Are you caught up on your taxes and account reports? Or prepared for exit tax? I may be trying to teach an old dog to hunt, but just in case, wanted to be sure you were fully informed before taking a decisive step. Good luck!
@NorthernShrike
I would think that all you mention above would indicate you had the “intent” to give up U.S.citizenship when you performed the expatriating act of becoming a citizen of Canada. You don’t mention the date of your citizenship, but if it is pre 1986, you most defintiely “relinquished”. Check out other threads on the pre 1986 amendment to the INA.
@Broken man — interesting. In Hong Kong they specifically instruct us not to use the online booking system, with the utterly BS excuse that it’s “due to the complexity of the renunciation process applicants should not make an appointment for a renunciation interview via our website.”
http://hongkong.usconsulate.gov/acs_renunciation.html
@Eric
Even more bizarre is the requirement, if you don’t speak English, to bring two witness who are neither friends, colleagues or family members:
“Those seeking renunciation that do not speak and/or read English are required to bring two disinterested witnesses. The two witnesses must be neutral and without conflict of interest (i.e. they cannot be friends, business associates or relatives). The two witnesses will attest to the facts by signing the Statement of Understanding after the applicant has signed the document.”
…So basically they expect you to find two random people off the street, pay each some money and bring them in with you? Even if you paid them money, don’t they have a “conflict of interest” in seeing your renunciation go through? Maybe they’re being paid half now, half after the ceremony 😛
Also, this line here is great:
“…individuals will continue to be treated as U.S. citizens for U.S. tax purposes until they have notified the U.S. government of their expatriation…”
Think they meant IRS and not the “US government”, since presumably the US government is aware that you renounced if you were given a CLN 🙂
@Broken man, Eric
Same procedure here in Switzerland, no appointments through automatic system. Some believe due to the overwhelming numbers of renounciants, they cannot handle the demand, something like a 2-year waiting list to renounce/relinquish, thus a lot of embassy hopping around Europe to find an embassy with a shorter waiting list.
@Eric, Don, NoFatCat: Last October, Toronto Consulate actually held a “group” renunciation ceremony for about 22 people.
According to an article in Globe and Mail, it is believed to be the first renunciation ceremony ever held in Canada. I suspect it may have been one of the first in the world, but I don’t actually know that. Maybe we should be lobbying for more group renunciations to help US meet the demand.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/americans-in-canada-driven-to-divorce-from-their-country/article2229969/
I don’t actually like the headline :Driven to Divorce Their Country. For many of us, we believed we had divorced the US years or decades ago (or at least legally separated!). Many of us remarried Canada or other countries, only to find our long-forgotten abusive spouse stalking us and our new partners. Instead of a divorce, what we’re now demanding is a permanent restraining order.
Thank you to the several individuals who responded to my query.
aHAHAHahahaha… that’s perfect, Blaze:
“Instead of a divorce, what we’re now demanding is a permanent restraining order.” Love it!
I’m slowly coming to the very resentful realization that I may be forced to seek the very expensive legal assistance, similar to Late Loyalist, in order to comply with the basic manditory tax filing requirements (no OVDI for me, if I can help it) which will then allow me to renounce my US citizenship as quickly as possible. Because that’s the carrot at the end of the stick for me now: my Decree Absolute! Glad to hear it won’t be too arduous a task through the Calgary US Consulate. Of course by the time I can finally get there, the staff will already have the wealth of experience — having done this for all the rest of you — so it will be a breeze.
@Blaze
Love the “stalker” analogy. Perfect!
This rush to renounce seems to me to be similar to the former rush to OVDI.
It seems people are just following a dumb, stampeding herd.
Just like people now regret doing OVDI, they will regret renouncing.
I wonder if you can sue the US for scaring you into renouncing, so you can apply for US citizenship.
That will be on a later blog: “The George Washington Society”.
@fullTurtle
You can renounce, then file your back taxes, the important thing is to be in tax compliance when you file form 8854 the expatriation tax.
there is much scaremongering about filing US taxes, it is convulated but not rocket science.
You will need the following as a minimum
form 2555 foreign earned income exclusion
form 1040 basic tax return
form 1040 Schd B interest reporting
form 1116? foreign tax credit
form ???? to defer registered savings plans
all the forms and instructions are availble on line
most are in pdf format which can filled and saved on your computer for further editing
@ everyone on the blog let’s help fullturtle save some money with our inputs.
also references to a reliable professionals to help him/her with this
@M: “Just like people now regret doing OVDI, they will regret renouncing.”
I don’t see it that way. If you don’t live in the US and have no intention of doing so in future, US citizenship is no more use to you than a (ruptured) appendix. Getting rid of it is pure upside.
@all, The US is like a Tumour, if you don’t remove it, it will just continue to grow and destroy you..
You want to save money? Do nothing.
A citizenship (and residency) is an asset, no matter the country. What you are a citizen of is your business, and only your business, that you need not tell anyone, just like your money and assets.
Giving up an asset because of a potential liability should be studied and measured very carefully.
I am seeing (pop culture) romantic analogies and medical analogies. I am not seeing legal or financial analysis.
The only area where I could see somebody regretting renouncing is if it severely disrupts an inheritance from a US-based family member. Otherwise, I think that most of the people on this board have little to no use for a US passport and yield no benefits from it (only problems), so it won’t be missed. We are actually in the informed minority – Recent surveys from, I think it was the Globe & Mail, showed that the vast majority, the stampeding herd, are collectively doing absolutely nothing about FATCA and their FBAR reporting requirements. THAT is the approach that will get people in trouble and they will regret not renouncing or sorting out their finances now, not the other way around!
Just saw your newest post, M. Doing nothing won’t save anyone anything in the long term – All that will do is make the IRS penalties steeper and steeper. Bad advice.
@M: US citizenship has never been as asset for me. I gave it up long ago and never tried to reclaim it–but it is now trying to reclaim me.
Rather than being an asset, US citizenship is a financial, emotional, personal and medical drain.
I like sadden’s analogy. Better to get rid of the tumor before it spreads and kills them.
You want a financial comparison? This “asset” (as you call) it has the potential to drain us financially, like a Ponzi scheme or bankrupt us completely like the stock market crash of 1929.
You want a legal comparison? The United Nations condemned Eritrea for citizenship based taxation and financial intimidation through citizenship based taxation.
@ Dan and all. This is a common theme I read frequently: The IRS will do something bad unless I do something. This is a fight or flight response to a perceived threat.
It really depends on your exposure. If you make money that is reported to the IRS by your employer, then yes you have exposure, because the IRS has that information, can garnish your wages, etc.
If you live abroad and the IRS has no information about you, nor do you have assets in the US, you have zero exposure, therefore nothing to fear.
And if Canada has said that it will not cooperate with the IRS on such matters, you have double protection: zero exposure, and 100% protection from the Canadian govt.
To renounce is a possible third layer of protection, but please keep in mind that the IRS and US Congress can make their own rules as to what constitutes taxation. They can always pass a law penalizing those who renounced with twice the fines, for example.
The best defense is to confront and choose to ignore the US Congress laws that are unfair, not to run away. Because they can always make up new laws to try to catch you.
M’s advice works in some situations better than others. A pure accidental who has never tried to assert any claim to be American and never wants to live there can probably just ignore this whole situation. It helps if they derive USC status from a USC parent – a US birthplace may be an awkward thing going forward.
In what situation *is* US citizenship an asset, if you’re legally and functionally a citizen of another country? Really only because it gives you the right to work there, which you might want to exercise at some point in your life. This is no small thing. But the situation you *can’t* be in is accepting a job in the States, moving there, and making it clear to the IRS that you’re a delinquent taxpayer who hasn’t filed returns and FBARs. Then you’re potentially really screwed, regardless of whether there were real taxes actually owed.
So as a practical matter, *if* you want to preserve the right to work in the US at some potential, hypothetical future time, you have to go through the complicated, life-sucking hassle of filing returns *now*. Maybe that seems worthwhile – it depends on the person, and their career situation.
This is why M’s assertion:
“A citizenship (and residency) is an asset, no matter the country. What you are a citizen of is your business, and only your business, that you need not tell anyone, just like your money and assets.”
really doesn’t work. US citizenship *might* be an asset, but at the cost of your time, money and privacy. *Or* you can protect your time, money and privacy, but your US citizenship will not be an asset if you make that choice.
@Halifax and all. I think most of you overestimate what the IRS is and what it can do, based upon some regulations written by its best lawyers, that you read.
They are a completely incompetent bureaucracy, staffed by the lowest paid US workers.
If you accept a job in the US, taxes are automatically deducted from your paycheck, more than you owe. Then some people file to get a refund. Many never file, at all.
To think that you would have to file 10 years of returns is absurd. They will only accept the past 3 years, firstly, second, you can just file the current year. No need for past years.
@ Blaze. I am not sure that complying with US laws in order to renounce, so you don’t have to comply with US laws anymore is the best strategy. It would be easier to not comply with US laws from the beginning.
This is like asking a stalker for permission to not see him anymore, and then having a five year relationship with him in order to meet his condition.
Have to strongly agree with M. There is NOTHING the IRS can do once you decide to lay low and not visit the USA. End of story.
But if you lie low and don’t enter the USA, then your US citizenship isn’t an asset.
Who said that US citizenship was an asset?
Oh see your point. I do not agree with M that US citizenship is an asset. It is for many of us a clear liability.
@M
I don’t understand the ‘pop culture / romantic’ and ‘medical’ analogies you refer to. Do you think the emotional and medical issues encountered by so many are not serious? That’s a bit demeaning, don’t you think? Are you, yourself, and your family, ‘US persons’ having to rethink your citizenship?
For most of us, to leave the US citizenship millstone behind so we never have to again think of the US is the right decision. We respect the decisions others have to make for themselves, if it was based on their good research, circumstances and even, perhaps, their age and how close to retirement they are. We here are not a stampeding herd rushing to renounce (or, better still, relinquish). The many of us deciding such have come to our conclusions after very careful consideration. I would also say that most of us NO LONGER HAVE TRUST in the government of the country of our birth.
Perhaps someone with greater wealth and exit tax possibilities has more valid reason to keep their citizenship. And, there are other reasons, like family and job opportunities. Although, with the way the US changes their “laws” (without, by the way, taking the responsibility of informing those who believed they lived under a different law – just throwing penalties around for, in most cases, no taxes owed), many of us do not wish to gamble for no reason other than to “have” that US citizenship — we cannot see any value vs the risk.
I don’t want to live the remaining years of my retirement continuing to ‘check in’ with the home land and I don’t want this mess left to the executors of my small but hard-earned estate who would have to continue the insanity of administration for my developmentally-delayed son (zero taxes owed — much better benefits here in Canada where his family is). I may have been born in the US, but Canada is absolutely where I want to be — why would I have stayed otherwise?
We see the good portion of vindictive crazies for US legislators and senators of the US and read what a lot of those most ‘patriotic’ home landers think of those who left to live in ‘foreign lands’. We are labelled traitors and tax evaders. No thanks — I have better things to do with my spare time and other worries needing more of my attention and retirement savings.
@M
How can you possibly believe that anyone who 40 or 50 years ago, “relinquished” their U.S. citizenship in order to become a citizen of their country of residence and has spent those 40 or 50 years contributing to their country of residence, with very little contact with the U.S., would now consider U.S.citizenship an asset.
Sorry but I left my country of birth as an 18 year old college student; I have had my children in Canada, married to a “Canadian” husband. I have buried a daughter in Canada and a husband in Canada. Today I survive on CPP that my late husband earned in Canada and investments that his life insurance and the sale of our home allowed me to purchase. So in other words, all my assets are Canadian, not American. And according to your reasoning, I should now be not too hasty applying for a CLN that I should have had 40 years ago. I should start filing U.S. tax returns and FBARs to my country of residence listing those same assets. GET REAL!!!!
M –
There is validity in some of your argument. I used to buy it a lot more.
The separate trajectories of FBAR and relinquishment / renunciation procedures over the past decade foreshadow worse conditions on the horizon. Take the panic of the close of 2011 OVDI as presage. And look at 2012 VD3 with that stepped-up penalty.
Consider as counterexample the many persons who have spent their working lives in Canada and would never qualify for post-65 medical coverage in the US. Isn’t $450 for a one-time renunciation a much better deal than to see multiples of that amount go to an accountant every year forevermore to file useless paperwork of ever-increasing complexity for no benefit whatsoever? And potential detriment?
Not to mention putting closure to a set of aggravating uncertainties. Pass the SWAN test – ditch that poor investment in an extra citizenship and Sleep Well At Night.
I agree that the US is exposing its own festering incompetence as much as anything else. So why suffer ongoing effort and cost to preserve a dysfunctional connection to such incompetence?
Canada for the most part is a country that is 4000 miles long and 100 miles wide. That southern border looms large. To say just don’t cross may not be such a simple solution.
@all
Interesting thread. Let’s focus on M’s:
“You want to save money? Do nothing.
A citizenship (and residency) is an asset, no matter the country. What you are a citizen of is your business, and only your business, that you need not tell anyone, just like your money and assets.
Giving up an asset because of a potential liability should be studied and measured very carefully.
I am seeing (pop culture) romantic analogies and medical analogies. I am not seeing legal or financial analysis.”
____________________________________
Renunciation is a personal decision. The issue is not whether U.S. citizenship is an “asset”. Let’s imagine that it is. The value of that “asset” must be measured against the costs. This should be “measured very carefully” with “legal or financial analysis”.
Okay, let’s do that.
Financial Aspects of The Cost of Retaining U.S. citizenship
Everybody has a different situation. But, remember that if you renounce you will have to have five years of tax compliance. That may or may not come at a cost (depending on whether you have been filing US tax returns). I have the impression (but have no actual knowledge) that some are to date with their filings and others not. Furthermore, some of you are worried about filing U.S. taxes when you may not be U.S. citizens.
For those up-to-date on the filings, and have no impediment to renouncing, then the issue becomes the possibility of the exit tax. It is important to consider the exit tax may or may not end up being a cost. It may end up being a prepayment of the estate tax (we don’t know which way the estate tax is going).
Those who are subject to the exit tax (who don’t see it as a prepayment of the estate tax) may have a financial reason to NOT renounce.
But, those who are NOT subject to the exit tax (remember we are talking finanical analysis) have a very sound financial (if this were the only consideration, but of course nobody would renounce for purely tax reasons) to renounce. Why? Through inflation it won’t take long for you be a “convered expatriate”. Owning a house in Vancouver would do the trick. Remember again that the U.S. has an estate tax to deal with eventually. Now, I don’t know how the U.S./Canada tax treaty affects that.
Those are “some” of the possible financial considerations and one part of the cost.
Non-Financial Aspects of the Cost of Retaining U.S. Citizenship
Simple you are treated like a criminal and with the advent of FATCA you are required to live under supervision. You can’t live a normal and productive live. Plus you have to continue to think and worry about this.
Sure U.S. citizenship can be viewed as an “asset” (in limited circumstances). The question is whether the costs outweigh the value of this asset in any signigicant way. This is for you to decide.
Finally, unless I am missing something, there is no way to renounce without being in tax (and probabaly FBAR) compliance.
The very existence of discussion about renouncing U.S. citizenship assumes that people want to be in compliance. Many of you seem to be worried that you are not in compliance because you became Canadian in the 70s or early 80s and have not been filing tax returns. This has been the subject of numerous discussions. I suggest:
If you have committed an expatriating Act (becoming a Cdn citizen for example or being a justice of the peace) prior to 1986, a clear reading of s. 349 gives you ample grounds to argue that you are not a U.S. citizen. If you are in this situtation your time would be much better spent working on the “state of your U.S. citizenship” (no pun intended) instead of filing tax returns. If you are not a U.S. citizen, then you should not be filing U.S. tax returns.. Furthermore, unless you can find something in s. 349 of the INA that says that loss of citizenship is conditional on the issuance of a CLN then …
So, there is a logical and financial analysis to this issue.
As Phil Hodgen says: “U.S. citizenship is a problem to be solved”. That may be a way to view the solution.
Finally:
@Fullturtle
I thought I read a suggestion that you thought the costs of this would prevent retirement or something. Two things:
– your first stop should be a good citizeship/immigation lawyer;
– second I have the impression (just an impression) that your situation is fairly simple. If so, remember the December 2011 FS for Canadian dual citizens (they actually spelled it “duel”) This should give you clear, inexpensive guidance for how to put this behind you quickly. You might want to hire a professional to write the “reasonable cause” letter.
@Outreagec
I thought I read that your mother was a Justice of the Peace. It seems to me that this is a fact (see s. 349) which would strengthen the claim that she is not Cdn. It would be a great tradgedy for her to go file taxes, etc. without really exploring this.
I offer this as non-emtional logical analysis. But, it is of course not legal (or any other kind of advice).
I think many of you are receiving bad advice.
Just tell your financial adviser that you no longer want to file US returns.
If you already don’t file, then don’t start. No need to bother with consulates and idiotic forms.
You are not seeing that the DoS/IRS has set up a game for you to play and you are falling for it. And lawyers and accountants are happy to take your money to “help you” play the game.
If you are integrated in Canadian society you don’t owe the US anything, not even a goodbye letter.
Dear M,
I admire you that you play the rule of your own -:) I wish I learned it earlier..
@M
The problem is that with FATCA your financial institution could withhold 30% of your yield on investments or deny you an account in Canada if they discover that you are a US person. So a CLN is necessary to deal with the Canadian financial institution so you will be treated as a Canadian.
Hi Too Much Coffee! Nice to see you here.
I renounced 7 weeks ago in Toronto. Mrs. A confirmed for me that you make the appts online. I can send you what is needed so you can go to the first appt totally prepared. I didn’t realize you were far away. I can give you a phone number to call so you can speak to someone who will know how to help you.
BTW, for clarification, the Oct 22 meeting was the first of two meetings for the 22 people who wanted to renounce. It was not a “ceremony.” Mrs. A told me they had not done this before but were trying to adapt to the situation (so many more than usual applying all at once). It was not possible to get an appt in November as the spots were taken up by those who had their first meeting in Oct. Two of our buds from the old Expat Forum were in that group. I know that they completed their 2nd appts. Do not know about the rest.
They have changed their approach several times since then, as to whether appts had to be booked directly, the 2nd appt only booked after the first one completed and so on. As far as I know, you definitely book the first one online as “request notarial and other services not listed” You will not pay the $450 until your CLN comes back.
You can write me at nobledreamer16@gmail.com.
@ij and renounce
A bunch of words are not laws, unless it has, at least, jurisdiction and enforcement.
@greyowl
So be it. Wait and see if anyone will dare to take your money. Make them make the first move.
Then take appropriate action. There will be many wealthy and powerful people who will act before their money is taken. By the time they get to your money it will have been resolved. Either FATCA will be refused (99.9% likelihood), or people will move their money where it is safe, and you can just follow their lead.
I cannot see Canada allowing its residents money to be taken from them and given to a foreign country. The most they might do is provide your name to the IRS.
PS Too Much Coffee
don’t wait too long. I am pretty certain Mrs. A. will not be there that much longer.
@M
“Just tell your financial advisor that you no longer want to file income tax returns” – perhaps you don’t understand the ramifications of FATCA. If it goes through in the form the IRS wants it to go through, then the financial advisors will have an obligation to report on any client who they believe to be American or close the account. I really don’t think telling them “you no longer wish to file” will cut it.
@tiger
I understand the ramifications of FATCA. Some people in Congress got drunk and they get mean when drunk.
Do you think banks will jeopardize their business to comply with drunk Congressmen? and that Canada will relinquish her sovereignty to drunk Congressmen?
I don’t think so.
Either it will be rejected, or gaping loopholes will be opened. My guess is that Canada will exempt Canadian residents, if they don’t reject it outright.
Even if your financial institution reports your name, there is nothing the IRS can do, if you are a Canadian citizen living in Canada.
@ toomuchcoffee and nobledreamer:
I had only one meeting at the consulate last fall because I brought completed forms with me to that one and only meeting. I downloaded the forms from the internet. They didn’t expect me to come prepared but they accepted my forms and allowed me to take the oath right away. I am now awaiting the arrival of my CLN. Another expat is doing the same: forms are filled out and the and the consulate appointment has been booked. I suspect many of us never dreamed we would retroactively be given back U.S. citizenship after becoming Canadian citizens long ago when dual citizenship wasn’t allowed. The decision to make a home and raise a family in Canada, and fulfill the duties and responsibilities of a Canadian citizen while demonstrating no ties to the United States should go a long way to demonstrate intent to renounce.
@M
I do like your comment “some people in Congress got drunk and they get mean when drunk”.
Hope you are right in your comment that FATCA will be rejected, but I don’t personally think it will be. The “Big Canadian Banks” are all taxpayers here also and they don’t want to stop doing business in the U.S.A. or with the U.S.A. As much as I hate to say it or even think it, but the U.S. carries a big bat. What I do acknowledge is that I hope the final regulations will have the necessary “loopholes” that will allow us to remain clients of these institutions and avoid the IRS. (even if it means no cross border trips – I might not like that but I am willing to do stop traveling to see my family, if necessary.)
@baird68
Did you “relinquish” or “renounce”. There seems to be a big difference.
If you became a Canadian many years ago, and did nothing since that date to show that you really intended to maintain your U.S. citizenship, then I assume you relinquished. If so, I also assume you have not filed any tax returns with the IRS, nor plan to do so. Or am I wrong about that?
@M – I just don’t see it quite as black & white as you do. I am certainly not going to rush into anything and do not see myself as part of a stampeding herd. My top priority is to prove my relinquishment in the 70’s. I have no intention of filing fbars or taxes, regardless. However, I don’t have any faith in what the final form of FATCA will be, nor do I have 100% faith in my gov’t not to bow down to the financial pressure applied by the US, and certainly no faith in my bank not to bow to the pressure. I am counting on my country to protect me and think they will to a certain extent. US citizenship is not an asset for me, in my personal situation, as I relinquished decades ago by becoming Canadian and my only focus is to prove my sole Canadian citizenship. While I agree this stupid thing was dreamed up by drunken politicians, I have to argue that it hasn’t stopped stupid, bite-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face laws from being voted in in the past. And personally, I appreciate ALL of the analogies, and all of the stories, whether financial, legal, personal, whatever. It all adds valuable information to help people make their own very personal decision about what to do.
Too Much Coffee. The only form you really need to renounce is DS 4081. Google it and download it. DS 4079 is for those who think they have a case that they might have relinquished in the past. There is also a form if you want a lawyer present but I don’t have the number.
Outreagec
@Outreagec This is an earlier post from renounceuscitizenship
‘I thought I read that your mother was a Justice of the Peace. It seems to me that this is a fact (see s. 349) which would strengthen the claim that she is not Cdn. It would be a great tragedy (sic) for her to go file taxes, etc. without really exploring this.’
Clearly renounce meant to say ‘strengthen the claim that she is not American”
Good luck persuading her.
I recently renounced at the Calgary consulate with another family member, and we encountered no difficulties. After living in Canada since 1973 and raising three children, I would never consider moving back to the U.S., my birth country. As mentioned before, I also have an adult daughter,with a developmental disability, who has been denied the right to renounce by the U.S. Consulate. My husband is not a U.S. citizen. Our son has decided to keep his dual citizenship, as he is an engineer in Calgary, but has worked in the U.S. various times. He may regret this decision later in life. But for now, it is his choice. So, perhaps, for him, he sees having dual citizenship as an “asset.” But for the majority of us, we definitely do not see it as an asset and we have put hours (my husband says he has spent 100 hours!) into learning everything about the tax implications, compliance, penalties, exit taxes, etc. and talking to a U.S. tax lawyer via telephone, plus planning our wills trying to safeguard our daughter with the disability, who cannot renounce. It looks like we will still have to endure filing tax returns for this daughter well into the future, which is a burden and unfair. But for me, it is going to be a real celebration when I get the Loss of Nationality paper in the mail! My last tax filings after renouncing are ready to be mailed. Hopefully, that work will all be acceptable by the IRS.
@ Cecilia
If your daughter is disabled, without income of her own, she is not required to file taxes in the US, even if she were a US resident. I think you are getting some inaccurate advice.
In the US you are not required to file tax forms unless you owe the IRS money.
Furthermore, if you have power of attorney over her you should be able to renounce for her. (Especially if you think holding US citizenship would be harmful to her.)
@ all
There are millions of US residents and citizens who do not file taxes, lead happy care-free lives, and they travel at will.
I cannot see the US Border messing with Canadian tourists because they think they should have filed a US tax return. That is the most absurd thing I’ve heard in a long time.
@Baird68 and TooMuchCoffee
Hi Baird! Long time since we have been in contact. If I remember correctly, you actually relinquished didn’t you? Because they accepted your situation you were able to do it in one meeting. I remember TooMuchCoffee posting on old ExpatForum but do not remember whether relinquishing or renouncing was the option.I also came with all my paperwork filled out but because relinquishing was not an option for me, I did have to have two appointments. It was odd because I received the papers in the mail and presumed I was to come with them filled out; the vice consul seemed surprised that I had done that. ??? In Toronto, you need 4 items (others here have suggested less than these but this is what is required):
The Info Sheet (used mostly when you register with Consulate)
DS 4079
DS 4080
DS 4081
The vice consul will give you this info on photocopied sheets:
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
He will take some time to make sure you understand what is involved.
They cannot refuse your request to expatriate unless they determine you are not doing it voluntarily or are under undue stress of influence by some other person, factor. Taxes are irrelevant and he will probably ask you nothing. In spite of the info on the Toronto website, the $450 is NOT collected when you take the Oath. And the fellow I got made me raise my right hand and repeat the Oath; another fellow merely signed the Oath in front of the officer.
@Cecilia
I hope you have been (or will be) in touch with Calgary 411 and recalcitrantexpat. Both have disabled children and are having a very hard time connecting with the correct agency to try and arrange to renounce for them. It is absolutely incorrect that you could renounce for them if you have POA. In Calgary411’s case, an RSDP has been set up and is the issue with regard to filing as this instrument is not recognized by the US govt; It requires the filing of FBAR, which the son is incapable of doing. At present, they have been looking into advice from Canadian Civil Liberties Union and I think they have had some favorable suggestions.
For info on parent/guardian not being able to renounce for disabled child:
Click to access 120538.pdf
e. Parents, guardians and trustees cannot renounce or relinquish the U.S. nationality of a citizen lacking full mental capacity: A guardian or trustee cannot renounce on behalf of the incompetent individual because renunciation of one’s citizenship is regarded, like marriage or voting, as a personal elective right that cannot be exercised by another. Should a situation arise of the evident compelling need for an incapacitated person to relinquish citizenship, you are asked to consult CA/OCS/PRI for guidance.
Cecilia. M is wrong about some things and right about others. He is wrong when he says you can renounce on behalf of your daughter. He is also wrong when he says that in the US you do not have to file if you don’t owe them money. You may not owe money but in some situations you are supposed to file anyway.
He is absolutely CORRECT in saying that you can safely forget about filing for your daughter. Ask yourself “What can the SOBs do?’
Please see tables 1-1,1-2,1-3 starting on page 4
Click to access p17.pdf
Unless you have income (over a certain amount), you don’t have to file in the US.
I am an accounting student in the US.
———-
Also please see above:
Should a situation arise of the evident compelling need for an incapacitated person to relinquish citizenship, you are asked to consult CA/OCS/PRI for guidance.
You may have to go over the consul’s head. Though to be fair, they are not likely to see the “compelling need” for a disabled person to relinquish based upon her highly unlikely case she will have to pay taxes to the US.
You may have to make another argument.
A couple of other issues that have not been touched upon, since I notice that everyone is focused on what needs to be filed and what doesn’t: I am renouncing primarily because, living in the EU, I have had two bank accounts forcibly closed and am down to simply current accounts, being barred from opening anything else due to a US place of birth. I have also been denied signing authority over a corporate account due to US place of birth and FATCA.
US citizenship is most definitely not an asset for me, just a barrier. If there were no FATCA I would be following M’s advice to the letter: simply ignore the problem. As it is, that is currently not an option due to US place of birth.
@M: “Unless you have income (over a certain amount), you don’t have to file in the US.”
Not true for FBAR. You need to read up more on this before posting.
@M
every group needs contrairian members, your thought provoking comments are welcome.
You suggest we ignore IRS DOJ and DHS regulations, we would love to ignore them.
However we are not being ignored, we are specifally targeted by these agencies.
These regulations are not part of some grand coordinated plan. Most are the results of “snipper amendments” to legislation unrelated to the tax code. FATCA is one an example. The latest offering to pass the senate would disallow the of use credit cards issued by non-compliant FFI’s.
The “stay home” option is impractical for long term Canadian residents with aging relatives in the US. My three aunts are between 85 and 97, my only sibling is in the lock-down section of a nursing home. they will not be visiting Canada.
I and my cousins are in our late 60’s or older,
many have health issues which make it difficult and expensive to travel I am the only Canadian in the group, it make sense that as long as I am physically and financially able for me to travel to visit them.
The only certain way to ignore present and future regulations is to exit the systems, This means we must cease to be US citizens.
In regards to the fee charge for renouncing, attached was the last email message I received from the consulate here in Calgary.
“Your appointment with Consul (removed name) is confirmed for Wednesday March 7th at 2:45. Please confirm that you are able to attend our office on this date.
Please complete the attached questionnaire and e-mail, or fax it to 403-263-2241, prior to your appointment.
You should bring the following items to your appointment:
– Evidence of your United States Citizenship. This must be presented at the time of your interview.
– Any U.S. passports (valid or expired),
– If applicable, you’re Consular Report of Birth Abroad, Certificate of Citizenship/Naturalization.
– You should also provide evidence of your Canadian citizenship to show that you will not become stateless by renouncing your citizenship.
– Due to a recent policy change made by the Department of State, the fee for Renunciation of citizenship is now required at the time of your interview. We can accept US/CDN cash, credit card or U.S. dollar money order, payable to the U.S. Consulate, Calgary. We do not accept checks or debit cards.
– As an option, you may also wish to provide a written statement regarding your reason for renouncing your citizenship.
Please visit our website to review security information before visiting our office.
http://canada.usembassy.gov/consulates/security.html
Thank you”.
Calgary 411, it took me three weeks to get a response for my appointment and then another three weeks after that to confirm. Good luck.
@Late Loyalist
Thanks — I’m working toward getting there. That Calgary sunshine and springtime around the corner must look even nicer to you this morning. Your story helps our continuing education here.
Thanks, nobledreamer. Cecilia and I have been in touch.
All three of our families here in Alberta (Cecilia, recalcitrant and I) look forward to one day seeing a sensible change regarding parents / guardians / trustees having the right, as with other decisions they make for the well-being of their family member on a day-to-day basis, to renounce the extraneous US citizenship on behalf of that family member.
Sheesh. Once again it looks like I’ve come late to the party.
@rivka88 : A big THANKS for the wealth of information on the forms needed to become current with US filing requirements. And I really would appreciate anyone’s referrals to a cross-border tax lawyer in Calgary, AB. I already know of one firm that meets this criteria in town, but as I said in a previous posting, can you say ka-ching? However, following a brilliant suggestion from JustMe, I may simply use this legal professional for a consultation only, then use a cross-border IRS certified CPA for filing. I had originally thought I might be able to do the filing myself (after all, we’ve been doing all our own tax filings in Canada forever), but in trying to read the instructions from the IRS Manual on their web site… my eyes soon crossed and my brains turned to mush. No wonder even IRS Commissioner Shulman has to use a “professional tax preparer” for his own 1040s. Even HE says it’s too confusing!
@M: Concerning renouncing: I really appreciate your comments, as I’ve had those same thoughts myself. “If I do nothing, how can they find me?” (ie: run far, run fast, hide deep) But after semi-calmly reviewing my own personal situation, that’s sadly not an option for me. I think it’s a very valid suggestion for those “Accidental Americans” who were born in Canada of an American parent and who have no ties whatsoever to the US.
@nobledreamer: Thanks for the list of forms info and links to further info on renouncing. I’m saddened to hear (from LateLoyalist) that I must wait for my Canadian citizenship approval before renouncing. I had kinda hoped I could do my filing, renounce, then use my “stateless-ness” to push for the expedience of my Canadian citizenship. Dang.
@renounceuscitizenship: And finally another huge THANKS for the rational discussion and suggestions on renouncing and who to seek professional help. You always seem to say exactly what I need to hear, right when I need to hear it. I hadn’t even considered talking to a citizenship/immigration lawyer. Great idea. Muchly, muchly appreciated!
@fullTurtle
My biggest mistake was consulting a reputable cross-border accounting firm in Calgary before consulting an immigration / nationality lawyer. A litany of mistakes after that made my journey to renunciation more difficult. (…and I didn’t have the benefit of this great site at that time)
@M,
There is another very good reason for taking care of all this as opposed to doing nothing. Perhaps “Accidental Americans” could do nothing but for the rest of us, our tax obligations will not go away after we die. Instead, they will be passed on to our children, who would likely have to absorb increased penalties. No responsible, loving parent would ever take a chance like that.
In Toronto, with regard to providing proof of Canadian citizenship, I was asked to bring my Certificate of Citizenship. The large, full-page form, not the wallet-sized ID card. The reason for this is that on the bottom right-hand side is the actual date of one’s citizenship ceremony; this is not on the card-size version.
@nobledreamer and others: I received a new Canadian citizenship certificate last week. As of February 1, CIC is no longer issuing the wallet size photo card. The new certificate is on letter size paper, in colour with the Canadian government seal at the top and a big red maple leaf in the centre at the bottom.
On the right hand side on the bottom is the date of my ceremony–April 27, 1973. The new certificate seems to have security features which the old ones did not have. There is no photo on the new certificate.
A notice with the certificate said this certificate “displays information which can be verified by other government agencies through a new electronic validation system.” There are two bar codes on the reverse of the certificate, along with a copy of the Oath of Citizenship and identifying information. The Oath on the back is the current Oath (in English and French), but is not the one I took in 1973, in which I renounced any previous citizenship.
Just got a note from the Vancouver consulate confirming my wife’s Friday morning appointment, and outlining all the security procedures she’ll have to go through. It doesn’t look like I’ll get to go with her; so she’ll have to apply self-control on her temper. I’ll prep her really well on that. Only possibility is if she needs a witness, but my guess is I wouldn’t be acceptable for that either.
But — this puzzles me. There’s a $50 fee to get documents notarized. I’m not sure what this means, or what documents it applies to. She will be bringing the two “relinquish” forms filled out and NOT signed; her Canadian passport; he birth certificate, a marriage certificate, and the full-sized original Canadian citizenship certificate. She’ll also have a statutory declaration that has already been notarized.
Johnbb, or anyone? Did you have to pay a fee to get documents notarized? I can see this getting close to the $450 they charge you to renounce (money well-spent of course, but that’s not the point).
I only had the $450 in Toronto, fwiw.
@Arrow
I wonder if the mention of the $50 fee is because the appt is actually with the “notarized document” department. There could be cases completely different than applying for a CLN. Are the two forms the 4079 and 4081?
I wish for both your sake and your wife’s sake that you would be allowed to go in with her. I know when my turn comes, I would like the company of one of my sons. They would be fearful about my temper for sure.
@ Arrow, I relinquished. I paid nothing. The consular official put the seal of consulate on the two forms (DS-4079 and DS 4081) and my statement, and then she gave me a copy (do seals on three copies). See
As far as I am concerned, when relinquishing you are telling the consulate of a prior act that you have committed which is potentially expatriating. You then inform them of your intent to relinquish. That shouldn’t cost a d*** thing.
In other words, the State Department is unqualified to make the person a citizen or no; it is a question of determining if you have committed an expatriating act with intent to relinquish. There should be no charge for informing them of your intent. You are no longer citizen willy nilly of informing them.
That is why I maintain consistently that I have not been a citizen since 28 February 2011 (the day I committed the relinquishing act), even though I did not speak to the consulate about it until April 7. I would have told them on 28 February, but they would not let me make an appointment I became a Canadian citizen.
The Consulate is not providing a “service” for which you should pay a charge. They are merely giving you an appointment so that you can tell them that you are no longer a citizen.
I just renounced my U.S. citizenship, took about 45 minutes, I’ve always been fully compliant with taxes and FBAR but with all the new compliance issues and almost getting tossed from several banks it was just to much for me to deal with.
As far as tax purposes goes, if you are a covered person they deem you sold everything of yours the day before you renounced.
IRC 877A(g)(4) provides that a citizen will be treated as relinquishing his or her U.S. citizenship on the earliest of four possible dates: (1) the date the individual renounces his or her U.S. nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the U.S., provided the renunciation is subsequently approved by the issuance to the individual of a certificate of loss of nationality by the U.S. Department of State; (2) the date the individual furnishes to the U.S. Department of State a signed statement of voluntary relinquishment of U.S. nationality confirming the performance of an act of expatriation specified in paragraph (1), (2), (3), or (4) of section 349(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(1)-(4)), provided the voluntary relinquishment is subsequently approved by the issuance to the individual of a certificate of loss of nationality by the U.S. Department of State; (3) the date the U.S. Department of State issues to the individual a certificate of loss of nationality; or (4) the date a U.S. court cancels a naturalized citizen’s certificate of naturalization.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html
Also I have found this site had a lot of useful info.
http://renunciationguide.com/
Arrow – Likely scenario: The first of two appointments. Rigid procedure. They do not know what you are coming for. You are not coming for notarial services. So no fees for that.
All an exercise to make a prospective ex feel jerked around. Extensive pre-encounter preventive temper management therapy advised!
Looking forward to your reportback.
@ Late Loyalist
I was re-reading your original story – “arrived in Canada from U.S. as a 13 yr. old in 1975, became a citizen here in 1980.” You entered the voluntary disclosure program, filed and then recently renounced. Having become a citizen of Canada in 1980 (considered at that date to have INTENT of relinquishing American citizenship), could you have skipped the voluntary disclosure and “relinquished” your U.S. citizenship?
This is a very helpful discussion.
@M and all
Re: “In the US you are not required to file tax forms unless you owe the IRS money.”
That may be the case in the US; the question of whether it is the same for Expats has been unclear. One is supposed to file even if they don’t owe. So the next question has been whether or not one should file even if they don’t meet the threshold.
FWIW, I just ran across this on another forum:
“The question of whether to file a 1040 return if you are below the filing threshold for 1040, but do have aggregate accounts over $10,000, came up on another forum. The OP decided to Email the IRS Email Tax Law Assistance help site. The official response they received was as follows:
“If you do not meet the income requirement to file a federal tax return , but must complete a Schedule B, Interest and Ordinary dividends for purposes of Reporting Foreign Bank and Financial Account (FBAR) information.
You should place your name and social security number in the space provided on the Schedule B, then complete part three as required, attach a statement explaining that you were not required to file an income tax return, but must submit the Schedule B for FBAR compliance requirements only.
File the Schedule B as a stand alone document to the address where you would normally submit your federal income tax return if you were required to file.
This was for 2010 tax year.
The instructions for Form 8938 clearly states that if you are not required to file a 1040, then you are not required to file Form 8938.”
@Arrow – How long did it take for your wife to get her appointment for Friday at Vancouver Consulate after she requested it? Please let us know how soon her second appointment will be if it is required. And, of course, we hope to hear a report that it all went well for her.
Aarrrrrggg! I can’t find the thread that had the discussion on starting a new thread re CLN dates. There’s so much good stuff on this site and I can’t remember where I’ve seen it sometimes! Anyway, I agree that it would be very helpful to have a thread dedicated to posts that show first consular visit, second visit if required, and date of receipt of CLN, along with anecdotal information re important details of the process such as what information/documents that particular consulate requires as they seem to vary. The timelines for this process would be instructive for us all. I’m still at the stage of seeing how it works for others but will eventually be able and willing to post my own experience.
For everyone wanting to search this site, including comment stream, go to google and enter the following:
“search item” site: isaacbrocksociety.com
Use quotation marks for the exact phrase of the item you are looking for.
Here’s a draft pdf of a chart on Relinquishments and Renunciations, Ladybug. http://isaacbrocksociety.com/2012/03/14/draft-pdf-compilation-of-relinquishment-and-renunciation-data-as-reported-on-isaac-brock/
We too thought this important and Pacifica777 was in the process of putting something together to post — so a little premature, but thought it a good time to post given your frustration. It will be a work in progress.
ladybug: posted this on the other thread — I hit the website on a Monday and could have had a slot that Friday — but opted for this Friday for a bunch of very important scheduling reasons (involving snow), I doubt I’ll need a second appointment, but who knows for sure?